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My Pal At Work Going For A Disciplinary

#1 User is offline   King Phil 

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:19 PM

A few weeks ago my mate Kirk at work got a letter from an occupation health thingy and had to go have an interview with a Doctor to see if he was okay.

This was totally out of the blue he just got home from work one night and had a letter waiting. He sent me a text asking for advice on what it was.

To be honest I didn't really know why he'd have to go to one he's had 29 days off sick in the last year but 14 of that he was in hospital . Whereas I've had like 129 days off sick in the last 12 months and was welcomed back with open arms. I said he should probably lay it on a bit thick and make sure the doc who was interviewing him knew all about his chest pains (the 14 days in hospital were down to some problems with his chest).

Why would a workplace send someone to one of these but not tell you first? Seems a bit weird. I can't seem to find much out via Google really.


Then on Friday just gone he got home from work and had a letter saying he's got a disciplinary this Friday as well - again, no one at work has even spoken to him about it so he had no idea what it was for. Last time he was off sick was in November for one day - again due to his chest.

He let me read the letter, and the copy of his Final Written from August 2011 valid for two years from that point, detailing that he'd been late four times in June 2011 therefore he was in the shit basically. In the passed few weeks he's been late in a few times (also making me late has he gives me a lift) but no one's said it's a problem really and he always works over to make the time up.


What would you think if this was you? I said considering that it's been neatly four months since he was last sick and nothing was said about it then that it's probably down to his lateness again. But the thing is, can they do him for that? Other people on the contract are late in more often or, as in my case due to him being late, as often but none of them are being bollocked for it to my knowledge. I'm certainly not - it could be that I'm more well thought of and technically speaking I did arrange a flexible pattern of starting times with my manager ages ago that I can always whip out if need be, but it seems really weird to me how they aren't even telling him what it's about. Maybe it's his sickness but since he hasn't been off since November isn't it a bit late to make a fuss out of it?

I told him to ring Acas and tell them everything as a start. I'm also going to get him to join Unison tomorrow and ask for a Union rep to go into his meeting with him.

Thoughts?

This post has been edited by King Phil: 25 February 2013 - 09:20 PM


#2 User is offline   DrWu 

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:41 PM

He's fucked, they want rid. If he's been there a while he will get some cash but other than that he's fucked. Employment law massively favours the employer - even if they're in the wrong they will offer a cash amount that is equivalent to what he would get if he went to tribunal - probably about 4 months pay. The basic reality is that even if they are in the wrong and they get rid, he wont get millions in a tribunal unless its racism or sexism. If he feels he is unfairly dismissed there is a cap on how much you can get. I've been through it, its shit.

He should consult the CAB and the consumer forums for better advice.

This post has been edited by DrWu: 25 February 2013 - 10:43 PM


#3 User is offline   Axey 

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:41 PM

Technically, sickness isn't a disciplinary issue unless he's been lying about being ill.

It's more than likely going to be his timekeeping. Two years for a warning is, imho, excessive - it would normally be 12 months. If they have decided to bring it up now, they must have good cause. If it's not the lateness, then they have to spell out the reason for the action in the letter - did they? It's also a bit of a shit to do it to his home address especially when he's been at work all day, when they could have called him into an office and told him what was about to happen.

Tell him to get a copy of the ACAS handbook on disciplinary procedures (it can be downloaed from ACAS) - this link may also be useful: http://www.acas.org....?articleid=1774. If it goes all the way to dismissal, and they haven't followed the minimum guidance set down by ACAS, then he would potentially have a good claim for unfair dismissal. There's also little point in bringing others into who are late, as you don't know what action is or has been taken against them.

Joining the union is a good step, but he has to be honest with the rep, otherwise they will walk away if they think he's not telling them the whole story.

PM me if you need any more help :)

#4 User is offline   DrWu 

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:48 PM

Sounds great dave, but it sounds to me like they just want rid - I don't know the chap but maybe he is shit at his job, got a bad attitude - maybe they just have to cut costs and he was higher up the list than others. If they want rid, they will get rid.

#5 User is offline   Dev 

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:20 PM

I'm with Wu, you're only getting one side of the story, maybe they have spoken to him but he's ignored it. Maybe he works slower and shitter than other people.

People who are perpetually late do bring it on themselves to a degree IMO. Just leave for work earlier, it's not difficult.

#6 User is offline   King Phil 

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:20 PM

I have to say I think I'm getting to full story especially considering he let me root through all the confidential letters they sent him and the occupation health letters.

To be honest he does rudimentary admin work but he does produce a lot more work than the people who are his work equivalents. He's got a very bad attitude but I can't hold it against him - they can be cunts to the day to day people whilst letting others (who usually have big norks) get away with all sorts.

The letter brings up his sickness record but the final warning letter he received in June 2011 is regarding four instances of lateness. Considering his last absence was one day in early November due to chest pains and another hospital visit it seems weird to bring it up now.

He's not even been able to speak to the two managers who are going to do his meeting as they're off till Thursday which is a bit of a joke.

I agree though I think he's fucked which is a shame as that's my ride to work :P

And genuinely a shame as he's a single parent too - a good part of the reason he's been late half a dozen times in the past year.

I've got him onto Acas and the Union at work.

Will let you know what happens.

#7 User is offline   Dev 

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:54 AM

View PostKing Phil, on 26 February 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

. He's got a very bad attitude

This is so much more important than people seem to realise. Being able to do your job is never enough. The reality is most people, given the same chance, could do your job just as well (I don't mean your job specifically, that applies to any almost any job). So you have to realise there is more to getting on in work than that.

People use the phrase 'its not what you know it's who you know' as a negative inference of nepotism but in another way it means it's not your work skills its your people skills that make a difference. Why would you promote someone who is hard to work with over someone who isn't, if their work is mostly the same?

I see it often where the guy in the office who complains all the time every time he's asked to do something then complains someone else who is flexible and helpful gets some course or job he wanted. And the pain in the ass guy always sees it as other peoples fault!

#8 User is offline   Fat Wangkhar 

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 12:07 PM

View PostDev, on 27 February 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

View PostKing Phil, on 26 February 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

. He's got a very bad attitude

This is so much more important than people seem to realise. Being able to do your job is never enough. The reality is most people, given the same chance, could do your job just as well (I don't mean your job specifically, that applies to any almost any job). So you have to realise there is more to getting on in work than that.

People use the phrase 'its not what you know it's who you know' as a negative inference of nepotism but in another way it means it's not your work skills its your people skills that make a difference. Why would you promote someone who is hard to work with over someone who isn't, if their work is mostly the same?

I see it often where the guy in the office who complains all the time every time he's asked to do something then complains someone else who is flexible and helpful gets some course or job he wanted. And the pain in the ass guy always sees it as other peoples fault!


Sage advice.


Sage as in wise... not kindof off green <_<

#9 User is offline   snafu 

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:37 PM

View PostDev, on 27 February 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

This is so much more important than people seem to realise. Being able to do your job is never enough. The reality is most people, given the same chance, could do your job just as well (I don't mean your job specifically, that applies to any almost any job). So you have to realise there is more to getting on in work than that.

People use the phrase 'its not what you know it's who you know' as a negative inference of nepotism but in another way it means it's not your work skills its your people skills that make a difference. Why would you promote someone who is hard to work with over someone who isn't, if their work is mostly the same?

I see it often where the guy in the office who complains all the time every time he's asked to do something then complains someone else who is flexible and helpful gets some course or job he wanted. And the pain in the ass guy always sees it as other peoples fault!


People skills should have nothing to do with being able to execute a task. I agree that skills will only take you so far though. When I was around 17-18, I got pulled in for a chat because I was nervous. I couldn't hold conversations about football and such... I thought the guy sitting in his comfy leather chair with a fancy collection of pens and desk at OCD level tidyness was an absolute prick. Ripped jeans and t-shirts, okay? That's all you need.

Office Politics are bullshit. Often, people who are lazy/negative/complaining are that way because they don't enjoy their environment. I've had it before where my boss is an absolute jerk, constantly berating people and expecting the moon on a stick. Not only did I snap, several other people did in rapid succession after me. Stressed times, company making people redundant.. finding reasons to sack anyone they could to save costs and replace them with cheaper folk.

Sorry man, but in the case of what King Phil just said - if this guy genuinely does the work.. then what's the issue? You can't be a complete cunt to your employees and expect them to just lie down and take it.


It's not gonna change it though. It is how it is. So yeah, fuck work.. basically.

#10 User is offline   snafu 

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:50 PM

Also, about getting to work on time.. I don't think you realise how hard it is for some people to actually do that.


Going to bed and getting to sleep can be an issue. Your mind can be racing, you might not be physically tired enough to actually sleep anyway. Even if you go to bed early, it's just not happening some days.

Getting up if you've had near to no sleep is even worse. I don't know about you, but when my body says "Hey dude, you're kinda tired. You should really stay in bed" - I tend to obey it. My body knows what's better for me than some halfwit semi bald prat with a flash car, gotta be honest.

True story:
CEO: "There's a lot of scare stories around, people getting made redundant. We have no plans to make anyone redundant just yet."

2 weeks later, redundancy starts happening. Next 'company meeting', on a completely separate issue regarding consolidation plans for old platforms:
CEO: "If there's any questions about this, please email me!"

I emailed him. I got told off for it by my department manager. Apparently it was like shouting "WAIT A SECOND!!" to a really senior Japanese guy or something. Genuinely couldn't get my head around it.

The world would be a better place if people just said what they fucking meant. It would allow simple pseudo-intellectual halfwits like myself, who have no theatrical social skills and really 'bad attitudes' to better pick apart/decypher all the pretentious acting and lying that goes on in the workplace day to day.

Basically, treat people like him as though they're autistic. They actually might be. Explain things to them in very simple terms but not aggressively. If you're senior and they're not, either you lucked out or you actually have some skills (such as people skills) that they don't. Never just fucking demand respect, but rather command it and earn it. It sounds like Phil's mate is just the product of a bully-boy boss who want him out of the door because they either don't like him, or they haven't made it explicitly clear what the issues are.

Leaders should lead, y'know? Yeah okay, they should stay 100 paces ahead and keep everyone going even when they're exhausted.. but everyone really does need to stop being so cunty to each other.

#11 User is offline   Dev 

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 10:48 PM

Life has rules. If you don't learn them you will be worse off than the people that do.

#12 User is offline   snafu 

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:28 AM

Nah.

Life has simple rules. Eat, sleep, breed, die.

Breaking rules, conning people and generally being a self serving twit is what gets people rich. Playing by the rules does not work.

Sorry Dev and co. Maybe you have a nice job, my last ISP job was shot due to a manager who bullied half the department when he was in a bad mood. Everyone was either sacked, or left. He stayed. One day, he applied for a job at a company I had previously expressed interest in. I knew the chief network architect there. Suffice to say when asked for an honest opinion on his character, he did not get the job.

It's not who you know, it's who you fuck over and are a cunt to.

If he was nicer to me, he'd have gotten the job and by consequence a pay rise.

Yes, karma is.

#13 User is offline   Dev 

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:28 AM

I dont know if even posting something as completely wrong as that will provoke a debate here these days

#14 User is offline   King Phil 

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:09 AM

View PostDev, on 27 February 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

View PostKing Phil, on 26 February 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

. He's got a very bad attitude

This is so much more important than people seem to realise. Being able to do your job is never enough. The reality is most people, given the same chance, could do your job just as well (I don't mean your job specifically, that applies to any almost any job). So you have to realise there is more to getting on in work than that.

People use the phrase 'its not what you know it's who you know' as a negative inference of nepotism but in another way it means it's not your work skills its your people skills that make a difference. Why would you promote someone who is hard to work with over someone who isn't, if their work is mostly the same?

I see it often where the guy in the office who complains all the time every time he's asked to do something then complains someone else who is flexible and helpful gets some course or job he wanted. And the pain in the ass guy always sees it as other peoples fault!



Whilst I don't disagree with any of that I don't think it applies to my mate in this case. I'll explain later as I'm at work & pretty busy.


Axey - what can someone do with accompanies an individual to a meeting? They're not allowed to answer on the persons' behalf but what is their role? Just observing or can they interject?

#15 User is offline   TheRobster 

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:37 AM

View Postsnafu, on 28 February 2013 - 02:28 AM, said:

Nah.

Life has simple rules. Eat, sleep, breed, die.

Breaking rules, conning people and generally being a self serving twit is what gets people rich. Playing by the rules does not work.

Sorry Dev and co. Maybe you have a nice job, my last ISP job was shot due to a manager who bullied half the department when he was in a bad mood. Everyone was either sacked, or left. He stayed. One day, he applied for a job at a company I had previously expressed interest in. I knew the chief network architect there. Suffice to say when asked for an honest opinion on his character, he did not get the job.

It's not who you know, it's who you fuck over and are a cunt to.

If he was nicer to me, he'd have gotten the job and by consequence a pay rise.

Yes, karma is.


Societies and people are more complex than that though Steve. I think you're over-simplifying in order to get a response or you just don't have the knack of playing "the game" so are more aware of it than most. Most offices have politics, most people realise they are bull**** but play along anyway (to some extent) because it's what you need to do to 'get by' (it's almost a skill in a sense). If you come in to work wearing jeans, a ripped t-shirt and sit there picking your nose and acting like a dick you can't expect to go as far as the next guy who is more professional than you just because both of you have equal ability to do 'the job'. People judge on much more than just your ability to do your contracted work.

This post has been edited by TheRobster: 28 February 2013 - 10:37 AM


#16 User is offline   Fat Wangkhar 

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:58 AM

Sometimes you will get lucky and work at a place where they don't care about it. Usually tech led. Typically destined for redundancies... or rarely a huge payoff.

#17 User is offline   snafu 

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 01:40 PM

View PostDev, on 28 February 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

I dont know if even posting something as completely wrong as that will provoke a debate here these days


Jesus Dev, why do you love to hide behind this snooty 'holier than thou' wall before? Go on, just call me pseudo-intellectual again and then go and reward yourself by going full retard over a piece of swinging cardboard designed to facilitate the life of chickens... :|

There's really nothing wrong about it Dev and in seriousness now, I don't want to be confrontational. But let me just clear something up:-

Quote

Sorry Dev and co. Maybe you have a nice job

I said that. I really meant that too! Sometimes (quite often) you land a job where things are actually nice, people are respectful and there's not quite as much of a pissing contest going on. So it really does pay to be nice to people, make the effort to get in on time and scratch everyone elses backs.

Some places though are not so nice and by the sounds of Phils mates environment - getting home to a letter notifying him of a disciplinary when quite honestly his boss could've been upfront about it sounds EXTREMELY similar to a place I've been before. They want him out. They'll now use every possible excuse to get him out and these (imo) relatively minor infractions will completely overshadow some of the better work he's done.



Sorry if my message was a bit retarded and grumpy, wasn't so well yesterday. :-P

#18 User is offline   snafu 

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 01:46 PM

View PostTheRobster, on 28 February 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

I think you're over-simplifying in order to get a response or you just don't have the knack of playing "the game" so are more aware of it than most.


Nah, this is where you misunderstand. I have that knack. I just don't care for it anymore.

p.s - turning up in ripped jeans is acceptable attire at any decent ISP workplace. I was never scruffier than my co-workers..:)

#19 User is offline   Sticky 

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:06 PM

Ripped jeans? Have I accidentally gone back to the 80s?

#20 User is offline   snafu 

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:51 PM

View PostSticky, on 28 February 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Ripped jeans? Have I accidentally gone back to the 80s?


You mean you left? Traitor.

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