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Woolwich What does it mean, if anything

#1 User is offline   Dev 

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:55 AM

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A man has been killed in a machete attack and two suspects shot and wounded by police in Woolwich, south-east London.

The Met Police said a murder inquiry was being led by its Counter Terrorism Command. Prime Minister David Cameron said the UK would "never buckle" in the face of terror attacks.

Footage has emerged showing a man wielding a bloodied meat cleaver and making political statements.

Police confirmed two men had been arrested in connection with the murder.

There are unconfirmed reports that the dead man was a soldier.


I the following days I expect a number of clips of footage to appear from people who were there but someone felt they could record it, but not intervene.

What does this say about the state of things, about how distant we feel from each other that no one felt compelled to try and stop them, to help the man on the ground. That it was okay to wait for (possibly up to 20 minutes) the police to arrive and deal with 2 men. And now the press will want to blame someone for not knowing this would happen, the government, police, MI5. All of which seems pointless when we can't even help ourselves or one one another.

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 12:16 PM

I hope you're wrong about there being footage, but I'm sure you're not. Whoever filmed that footage of the killer talking about our government and Muslim families being killed by our troops can't have been the only one filming.

I'd like to think that if I'd been there I would have run in to help, to do something to stop them attacking him, but I really don't know for sure. I mean, there's two blokes with multiple weapons taking part in a very vicious attack on a young man, so I can understand why people would be scared to intervene. I mean, the unarmed police who first responded didn't move in and they have stab vests and batons and pepper spray. Why would we expect the public to intervene if the police won't?

I saw this CCTV video years ago, of an assault taking place in a pizza shop or something similar on a weekend night after the pubs have shut. This woman pushes in front of the queue and a young lad tells her she's out of order. She screams at him, aggresive for a while, while he tries to ignore her, obviously intimidated. She runs out and gets her boyfriend. Boyfriend walks in, a 6 foot odd massive (and I mean MASSIVE) black guy, and starts beating the lad. I mean, he gives him a proper kicking. The pizza shop is full, there's loads of people there, and not one person does anything to help. The big fella even steals his phone and wallet and then walks out as if nothing's happened. Nobody helped. The kid was out cold, broken jaw etc, and nobody helped. (I've tried to find the vid but I can't, and even though I only saw it once it's stuck with me forever. It might have been on one of those 'street wars' shows or whatever idk.)


also, our country is full of idiots:

http://img2u.info/ckgni/i/ga061a472.png

#3 User is offline   TheRobster 

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:31 PM

From the reports I've read it seems people did try to help (several women) but it was too late really - they'd already run him over and stabbed the guy to death anyway. Also it's a fair point that if you witness two nutters armed with knives and firearms, would you as an unarmed/unprotected member of the public try to intervene? If you're going to get involved at least make sure there's a chance you can actually do something useful other than becoming a statistic yourself.

I once worked with a guy who tried to stop three blokes beating someone up in Leeds city centre on a Friday night. They stabbed him for interfering and he nearly died (none of them were prosecuted for it either, they just said it wasn't them and there was no way to prove which of them had done it).

If you're going to intervene I think you need to be prepared to potentially seriously injure/kill the other party since it's all that will stop some people (used to work in a rough pub in Leeds, some people esp. if coked up won't stop for anything once they've kicked off - seen ppl carry on fighting even after been badly beaten and stabbed).

Nothing will come of the Woolwhich event - it doesn't look as though it's Al Qaeda sponsored (or similar), just some randoms with a grudge. If it was gang related we probably wouldn't even have heard about it outside the local news.

This post has been edited by TheRobster: 23 May 2013 - 04:36 PM


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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:11 PM

That's a fair point about if it were gang related. And it's odd to think there was a save the children ad on today during the news that said 19,000 children die every day from drinking dirty water yet the 24hr media was focusing on this one single death.

So are things like this just a sporadic inevitability of our society then?

#5 User is offline   Earthy 

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:17 PM

Im still in a bit of shock tbh,

Yes I know that knife and gun crime is dropping (according to figures) and I know it occurs on the streets everyday. What gets me is that this was done on the streets of london to send a politically motivated message, broad daylight on some random armed forces bloke. These 2 guys with the support of their group chose a target and decided to act in the most barbaric way.

Those very actions are the sort I associate with areas of africa, the middle east, and the stans. It is a brutal, backward and dissgusting way to make a statement and deserves no place in any modern society. To see it occuring on our shores is a concern. Yes I know people are getting killed on the streets of our cities everyday, but not many are as publically done as this.

Islam is not to blame, yes it can be a dominating force but this is the act of animals who are just associated with it.

Sadly there is no answer preaching peace, tolerance etc is not going to work, Islam and its followers by its very nature is Invasive and stands out, christ its not easy to spot a christian in the street, but its pretty obvious who is a seikh or muslim or a chrishna. The prescence of these people can intimidate even if that is unwarranted and the bloody press dosnt help mind you some of them dont help themselves.

Remove religion and lets go back to killing each other because someone gave someone else a funny look.

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:24 PM

People have always done bad things to other people, it's been happening since the beginning of time. The motives might change and the acts might be more noticeable thanks to the internet and phone cameras but it doesn't change the fact that these things have always occurred. We might notice it more but violent crime (if you believe the stats) seems to be down in almost every Western civilisation now.

I disagree about the gang thing. It was a horrific crime committed in broad daylight in front of dozens of witnesses, some of whom filmed the aftermath. That video would have made headline news all over the world even if the bloke had been shouting about how his gang was harder than your gang, although I might agree there wouldn't be quite as much coverage if it hadn't been classed as an 'act of terror' so quickly.

And just to finish on your point about the thousands of children dying, the British public (in general) don't feel empathy for those kids unless a shitload of celebrities tell them they should, while they entertain us with shitty comedy sketches for nineteen hours and intersperse that with clips of said celebrities crying and cuddling dying black kids.

This might well be down to how these things are reported on the nightly news, I don't know. Nobody gave a fuck about that massive bomb in Iraq which killed thirty-odd people and injured nearly two hundred, the same day of the Boston bombing, yet there was an outpouring of grief for the three dead and a hundred-odd injured for days on both sides of the pond after Boston. We as a society don't see those people the same way we see our people, and I don't know how that can ever change. It should change, but I can't see how.

#7 User is offline   DrWu 

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:31 PM

Islam is to blame. It is written in the book. You can interpret it as much as you like but the verses are clear about violence towards non Muslims.

It's a bit the same in the bible - at least the first book - but what has happened is that western society has grown rich and generations have gradually mellowed and given a new interpretation that has eventually become more than the norm - it's become 99.99999% accepted. IE, you may believe but really you don't take what the book says literally. I mean, you're not fucking crazy, right? Anyone who has read Leviticus can read this stuff, but they dont follow it - even the creationists who decide (for some reason) to pick and choose the bits about gods design from the first book choose largely to ignore these bits:

When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening.
Leviticus 15.19-24

You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together
Leviticus 19.19

You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard
Leviticus 19.27

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have-- you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you.
Leviticus 25-44

Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him.
Leviticus 24:16

And why wouldn't they? If they actually held up the info in the old testament then fuck, how would they live in this century? Not very well that's for sure.

For the Koran read:

http://www.thereligi...23-violence.htm

The problem is that the Islamic societies have not had the same rate of economic and therefore social advancement over the same time period. And this has maintained the same blood and guts literal reading of the holy book, among some sectors, as it would have been 300 years ago in Europe. The internet is the graveyard of religion but it takes generations.

So yes, Islam is to blame. The words are there and no matter what any liberal PC idiot says without the words the political or economic situation wouldn't be able to exploit it. The same thing would be happening with the various forms of Christianity were the economic history reversed of course (for modern day example take the Westboro Baptists - imagine they had national support) - but were it not for Islam then these crimes would not have happened. Without Christianity neither would the Crusades. Monotheistic religions are full of dogma and the books, taken literally, all espouse violence and intolerance (mixed in with peace and philosophy of course - and there's lots of that in the Koran and the Bible). The New Testament has an overall message of forgiveness of course, but you simply cannot really deny the raw aggressiveness of some parts of the Koran and when people are oppressed and education is low, small sectors of society will do stupid things that they believe in.

Obviously I am an atheist. However, I do find the Koran particularly aggressive and dogmatic, even against the stiff competition on offer. In some respects I've got more respect for those who do follow it literally. The 99% of people who follow a liberal interpretation are really just believing in something that gives them some comfort but without a rational thought as to the reality of picking and choosing bits from the book that suits their lives.

TLDR: Monotheistic religions are fucked. I give them max 100 years before they are gone.

This post has been edited by DrWu: 23 May 2013 - 11:57 PM


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Posted 24 May 2013 - 12:20 AM

You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard
Leviticus 19.27 ---Fuck I wish we'd kept this one my beard atm is fucking ace and the mrs wants me to shave it.

Leviticus 19.27, Wife! LEVITICUS!


I'll read your other bits and respond after some research, currently watching Schindler's List which is a great film I've never seen.

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 11:20 AM

View PostEarthy, on 23 May 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Im still in a bit of shock tbh,

Yes I know that knife and gun crime is dropping (according to figures) and I know it occurs on the streets everyday. What gets me is that this was done on the streets of london to send a politically motivated message, broad daylight on some random armed forces bloke. These 2 guys with the support of their group chose a target and decided to act in the most barbaric way.

Those very actions are the sort I associate with areas of africa, the middle east, and the stans. It is a brutal, backward and dissgusting way to make a statement and deserves no place in any modern society. To see it occuring on our shores is a concern. Yes I know people are getting killed on the streets of our cities everyday, but not many are as publically done as this.

Islam is not to blame, yes it can be a dominating force but this is the act of animals who are just associated with it.

Sadly there is no answer preaching peace, tolerance etc is not going to work, Islam and its followers by its very nature is Invasive and stands out, christ its not easy to spot a christian in the street, but its pretty obvious who is a seikh or muslim or a chrishna. The prescence of these people can intimidate even if that is unwarranted and the bloody press dosnt help mind you some of them dont help themselves.

Remove religion and lets go back to killing each other because someone gave someone else a funny look.



Aye it's shocking and disgusting, not at all civilised. Mind you, if they'd been actual foreigners, dropping a 500lb bomb on the barracks from 30 thousand feet, that would have been perfectly acceptable. Would probably have flattened the school next door though, but that would just be acceptable collateral damage for a civilised nation, right?

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 01:10 PM

View PostFat Wangkhar, on 24 May 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Aye it's shocking and disgusting, not at all civilised. Mind you, if they'd been actual foreigners, dropping a 500lb bomb on the barracks from 30 thousand feet, that would have been perfectly acceptable. Would probably have flattened the school next door though, but that would just be acceptable collateral damage for a civilised nation, right?


Hey now we can't be blaming goverments for terrorists hiding next to schools and houses and shit, I mean, we'd never be able to blow them all up if we had rules or something ffs.

#11 User is offline   King Phil 

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 08:28 PM

View PostDev, on 23 May 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Quote

A man has been killed in a machete attack and two suspects shot and wounded by police in Woolwich, south-east London.

The Met Police said a murder inquiry was being led by its Counter Terrorism Command. Prime Minister David Cameron said the UK would "never buckle" in the face of terror attacks.

Footage has emerged showing a man wielding a bloodied meat cleaver and making political statements.

Police confirmed two men had been arrested in connection with the murder.

There are unconfirmed reports that the dead man was a soldier.


I the following days I expect a number of clips of footage to appear from people who were there but someone felt they could record it, but not intervene.

What does this say about the state of things, about how distant we feel from each other that no one felt compelled to try and stop them, to help the man on the ground. That it was okay to wait for (possibly up to 20 minutes) the police to arrive and deal with 2 men. And now the press will want to blame someone for not knowing this would happen, the government, police, MI5. All of which seems pointless when we can't even help ourselves or one one another.

I'm six foot, 122kg, strong as fuck, and I can handle myself.

No way would I have got involved in this incident of two crazed dudes with knives and guns.



I'm putting this in the random incident column. It's insane but anyone can walk into a Wickes tomorrow and "tool-up", walk into a busy area & find someone who fits the religion/race/whatever they have a problem with and cut him to bits. And his mates.

At most a month down the line you'll be forgotten about.

London Riots anyone? Anyone remember how this "shook our society to the core" and "We must change!" It's bollocks.

You can kill the cogs but you cannot stop the machine.


Having said that it won't take many small incidents like this against the native population before running someone in a burka over at a traffic light junction becomes a sport.

This post has been edited by King Phil: 24 May 2013 - 08:38 PM


#12 User is offline   Dev 

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:09 AM

View PostDrWu, on 23 May 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

Islam is to blame. It is written in the book. You can interpret it as much as you like but the verses are clear about violence towards non Muslims.


Is it inevitable that some will take the violent part literally and as an imperative to act, because it doesn't seem to be so for Christians and Jews who have equally violent passages? Or is it something to do with the way those with power (western governments) are treating those without. You don't see too many drone strikes on China and North Korea do you.

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 11:56 PM

Hi all, long time.

I'm quite pissed right now so I hope this makes sense....

As screwed up as my country is (and believe me we have issues) we are still allowed to defend ourselves and those around us. I carry a 9mm most days and if I had come upon these guys doing that I can take comfort in the fact that I would have shot them both without hesitating. The problem with the UK imo is that you have all lost the right to defend yourselves in a knee jerk reaction to Dunblane (correct me if i'm wrong).

We have the one of the highest murder rates in the world and I was more scared to walk down a dodgy street in London than I have ever been here, armed or not. I truly believe that people should be free to arm them selves as they see fit and have the right to defend them selves and their property without fear of prosecution (within reason of course - and no quoting Oscar please lol, he is so going down!).

On a final point, I agree with the comments above about Islam, even the so called moderates. The thing that pisses me off the most is that the moderates will act like they don't agree with the extremists to your face but the truth is that that secretly support them for the most part (obviously I am generalizing here but I think I am right in the main).

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